ontology: (Default)
ontology ([personal profile] ontology) wrote2008-02-14 06:47 pm
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dubiously sane vampire ponderings

Interestingly, in all of the vampire stories I have come across, in whatever medium, none of them have ever given any thought as to why Christian symbols -- crosses, holy water, often churches themselves -- ward off vampires. To be fair I don't recall any scientific explorations of the fending-off power of garlic or silver or stakes (wooden or iron) or why vampires can't cross the threshold of a house uninvited*, either, but they don't have the same sort of -- hmm, significance. And I've never come across any stories in which a vampire recoiled from the Koran, or a Hindu idol, or the Star of David. But then there are also very few vampire stories set outside of a Western aesthetic.



* And because I think far too much, I keep thinking about how the particulars of that rule work. Vampires tend to make homes in abandoned buildings (all right, sometimes their own seemingly abandoned homes), and if the building is abandoned, does that stop the whatever-it-is that requires an invitation? What if someone's crept off the street to sleep in an abandoned building for a night, and a vampire attempts to enter? Does the building or house have to be specifically in someone's possession? And what sort of buildings can't they enter? Homes, all right, absolutely; and usually churches, too, but for different reasons. But what about businesses? If a vampire took a notion to attend the theatre, would he have to finagle some way of being invited inside? Most of the stories that mention the invitation requirement stop with houses and don't seem to give a thought to other buildings, so presumably the rules are different, but how, and why? Can vampires enter the homes of other vampires without being invited? How does one, or can one, un-invite a vampire? (When Angel went evil, they changed the locks, but I'm not sure that fits in with how I see magic, as such, working.) At what point does spending a great deal of thought on the inner workings of fictional universes border on getting one institutionalised? Is there any hope for me? Will I ever run out of question marks? Is it less mad if it can count as novel research?

[identity profile] gustavvs.livejournal.com 2008-02-15 01:37 am (UTC)(link)
In I AM Legend (the book) it is explained that vampires are afraid of religious symbols because it meant something in their former life. So it is the power that carried over.

[identity profile] airys1.livejournal.com 2008-02-15 01:59 am (UTC)(link)
I think those are excellent questions...I'd like to know the answers to some of them, too!
And as to spending a great deal of thought to fictionalized workings is hardly a mark of madness, but a mark of creativity. And problem solving. :)

[identity profile] bornofstars.livejournal.com 2008-02-15 02:29 am (UTC)(link)
Is there any hope for me? Will I ever run out of question marks?

Hee! I love it.

[identity profile] charismitaine.livejournal.com 2008-02-15 03:59 am (UTC)(link)
I've seen several things that suggest that it is not the symbol that deters the vampire, but the faith that is represents (Stephen King popularized this idea, I know, but I don't think that it originated with him). So if you don't believe in the power behind the symbol, then it won't do you any good. I have read that garlic was believed to be a protective talisman all through Europe, and not limited to vampires, possibly because it was also believed to be a preventative medicine. Wikipedia says that "the association of garlic to evil spirits may be based on the antibacterial, antiparasitic value of garlic, which could prevent infections that lead to delusions, and other related mental illness symptoms" and also mentions a Christian legend that "that after Satan left the Garden of Eden, garlic arose in his left footprint, and onion in the right".

I've also read different things about the whole 'inviting in' thing, and I think most people have adopted the idea (I know McKinley talks about it in Sunshine, but I've seen it elsewhere too) that what's important is the threshold--that it's the psychic energy that comes with an established household, putting your psychic imprint on a place by 'nesting', etc., and it's necessary to lower that psychic barrier by consciously allowing the vampire in. I'm not sure where this originated, though--I can't remember if it features in traditional lore (some of the things I'm read about early folklore center on the undead returning to their last place of residence and entering freely), or if it's even mentioned in Stoker's Dracula, since that's where the lore that's been perpetuated mostly comes from...

Of course, some things are modern additions to the legends, without a foundation in traditional lore, so there's not a rhyme to the reason, you might say--they looked good on camera and caught on, which is why we have vampires as sex symbols instead of weird, bloated looking people with hairy palms....

I'll ask my brother. He has many interested reference books on vampire lore!

[identity profile] faeriemaiden.livejournal.com 2008-02-18 12:19 am (UTC)(link)
I'd always half-wondered about the garlic, but there are so many strange food-related anti-supernatural superstitions (the one that comes to mind is detecting a changeling by brewing beer in an eggshell), so it's sort of par for the course, so to speak.

(Reading about vampires on Wikipedia. I suddenly have an insatiable need to make fun of Lord Byron. It comes from time to time; it will pass. :p)

I very much like the psychic imprint concept; it suits my ideas of magic's mechanisms, and it suits the vaguely conceptualised world of my maybe-novel.

I'm very fond of the attractive vampire trope, , because I like that the evil isn't immediately obvious as such, and people going "aaaah, a vampire!" as they might say "aaah, a rat!" (okay, a really big, vicious rat that will kill you, painfully) and running away makes for a very flat story. :p Actually, I think I find that I like vampires to appear relatively like normal people (except...spookier, and prone to archaic speech patterns, and so far I have only ever read one book that mentioned the effect extreme longevity might be expected to have on a vampire's language, and that one was protagonist-ed (can I use protagonist as a verb? :p) by a PHILOLOGIST, and I spent quite a lot of the book making little squeaky language-geek noises), at least if they try hard enough, because the idea of The Horrible Thing That Could Be Amongst Us is more fun than it really has any right to be.

Also, I would be utterly thrilled at any book recommendations, because Amazon is sort of rubbish as a resource. :p (Parenthesis therapy would be nice, too.)

[identity profile] charismitaine.livejournal.com 2008-02-20 12:29 am (UTC)(link)
As far as vampire novels, definitely read Dracula, and definitely read Sunshine if you haven't already (of course McKinley added her own stuff to the usual folklore, but it's just an awesome book anyway). If you're interested in being true to traditional lore don't read Anne Rice and stay far the heck away from that Twilight crap (not that I didn't read the whole book in one sitting. I did. And as soon as I was done with it and no longer in the world of the book I sat back and said 'well that's note a healthy thing for thirteen year olds to base their romantic fantasies on!'). And (people are going to scowl at me for this) but don't look to Buffy or Angel either. Whedon just made up his own vampire stuff, mostly, and it has only a surface relation to folklore, which has kind of been a barrier to me liking it (also I've never had the first season of Buffy, so I never had the chance to get into it at all. But I have watched Angel and I can tell you that the lore is iffy).

For actual reference books I need to give my brother a call--when I want to know something mostly I just call Brad o.0 Vampires are one of his particular areas of interest, so he knows a lot more than I do. He can go on about it at length, and has all kinds of fascinating, obscure knowledge, so he'll know more about the origins of legends and such, and can give you the names of the best reference books--I shall report back! And if you have the History channel and they're doing a lot of reruns, keep your eyes open for their special on vampires--they were airing it non-stop, it felt like, a few months ago, and they seem to cycle these things. It's interesting, if overly theatrical *cough*

[identity profile] lady-moriel.livejournal.com 2008-02-15 07:21 am (UTC)(link)
Well, I'm guessing the main reason for the power of Christian symbols is that back when real vampire lore started up, not just the stuff from Dracula and onward, vampires were lumped in with werewolves, witches, demons, and so forth--evil people who'd thrown their lot in with Satan in some way or another and were given demonic powers in return. Something like that, anyway. So Christian symbols are used against them for the same reason they'd be used against, say, an actual demon.

Now, like Charis said, more modern bits of folklore have focused on the psychic defense raised by the person's faith in the symbol and not the symbol itself. Doctor Who did that--in the Seven ep "The Curse of Fenric," the bad guys are these vampire-like things called...what was it...haemovores, I think? That's how it worked with those, so different people in the ep were able to use different symbols against them, not always to pleasant effect...this priest guy held out a Bible, but they taunted him, he doubted, and they took him. A Soviet soldier got past them by holding out a pin of the Communist Party hammer and sickle because of his great faith in "the revolution." Ace held off the haemovores because of her faith in the Doctor; he, in turn, got past them by saying the names of his companions.

Since you're already going into research mode, you should definitely try reading Dracula, since it's pretty much the father of all vampire lit--actually I've an audiobook of it, unabridged, I could give you links to. I'm nowhere close to finishing it myself, but it might be good for research. You should definitely watch Moonlight, too, and read a few of The Dresden Files since he deals with vampires a lot. (Plus he makes a reference to the Evil Overlord List in Death Masks. How can I not love the guy?) Dresden deals with the whole threshold thing too, actually, and I'm trying to remember--well, of course there's stuff about that with fairies in the Artemis Fowl books, that coming into a house uninvited robs them of their magic and makes them sick, but it wasn't too specific otherwise (although Holly once tore apart a house around a bad guy to get around that rule). Anyway, Dresden...let me think...it had something to do with the energies a place collects by virtue of being a home, or something like that, and the strength of the threshold depends on how--for lack of a better word--homey the place is. Dresden's bachelor pad doesn't have a very strong threshold, for instance; a home with a family who's lived there for years would have a very strong one. The threshold in that world doesn't necessarily block bad guys from coming in, but I think the way it works is that if someone's not invited and they have any evil intent, the threshold will make it hard for them to get in, and if they manage it, it'll remove a lot of their power while they're inside. Only works on supernaturals, of course, not humans. So all in all I think the threshold bit only works if someone actually lives there, and if it's, say, an abandoned building a homeless drunk sleeps in now and then, the threshold would be virtually negligible. A business probably wouldn't have much either.

Oh, and other books you should look up--I found these in my werewolf research:
Vampires, Werewolves, and Demons: Twentieth Century Reports in the Psychiatric Literature. Richard Noll.
Mysteries of the Unknown: Transformations. Editors of Time-Life Books.
Adventures in Unhistory: Conjectures on the Factual Foundations of Several Ancient Legends. Davidson, Avram. Also recommended by Neil Gaiman, so, you know.

Ooh, and you should definitely look at tvtropes.org, very addictive site...they'll have a page on vampires in movies and TV.

[identity profile] faeriemaiden.livejournal.com 2008-02-17 10:47 pm (UTC)(link)
So Christian symbols are used against them for the same reason they'd be used against, say, an actual demon.

That makes sense, especially on the outside of the stories, but I find it weird that nobody ever discusses it within the context of the stories themselves. Other than the whole "Christianity is silly" bias, I suppose. (And Remus is offended, because werewolves generally have no choice in being turned and are often created by accident.)

Now, like Charis said, more modern bits of folklore have focused on the psychic defense raised by the person's faith in the symbol and not the symbol itself.

That's an interesting idea, although it seems too easy to me (and I don't know if I entirely agree with the ideology behind it; bit New Agey) -- I mean, it doesn't make for as good a story, in a way, if anything you happen to feel particularly strongly about can ward off a vampire. Though The Historian, as I recall, had a similar idea, only it wasn't something you could use deliberately, or at close range, more of a general talisman -- the doing of normal things, immersing oneself in some kind of -- interpersonal-ness, or community, or love, it at least kept you a little safer, and my explanation of it was completely rubbish, but there you go.

I really like the threshold concept, and it seems to fit very well with what I know of Evangeline and her universe and the sorts of themes I like to play with, wot.

Yay, researchy books! I tried looking on Amazon for things to get on loan, but Amazon is just too big and full of reviewers with no sense at all; it's impossible to gauge what might be useful and what won't be.

Ooh, and you should definitely look at tvtropes.org, very addictive site...they'll have a page on vampires in movies and TV.

...I would like the last two hours of my life back now. :p
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[identity profile] avendya.livejournal.com 2008-02-15 02:56 pm (UTC)(link)
If you're writing about vampires, begin with the original Vlad the Impaler (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vlad_the_impaler). IIRC, he wouldn't enter a noble's home uninvited, and that's where that vampiric tradition came from.

(Of course, it's important to note Vlad was Christian.)

Other than that, do read Dracula.

[identity profile] faeriemaiden.livejournal.com 2008-02-18 05:24 am (UTC)(link)
Interesting to think of some of the vampire traditions coming straight from Vlad himself. (Eh...he liked stakes. That's kind of a weird twist. Only I think the staking-a-vampire, or at least the stake-the-corpse-in-its-grave-so-it-won't-get-out idea pre-dated him. I can't remember now.)

Of course, it's important to note Vlad was Christian.

In a manner of speaking. :p

And now that I know that my library has a copy of Dracula that isn't illegible (hate tiny, tiny ancient paperbacks! haaaate them!), I shall. :D

[identity profile] burningstarsxe.livejournal.com 2008-02-15 06:03 pm (UTC)(link)
I'd never heard the threshold thing . . .

I think that the reason Christian holy signs affect vampires is because vampires are demons. Demons are cast out with the sign of the Cross/in the name of Christ/with holy water, etc. Vampires wouldn't fear the Koran because Islam is not a religion that follows a real God. (it is my opinion that Islam is demonic in nature, anyway) Hinduism is also a religion that follows false gods, which as the Bible says, are demons as well. The Star of David has never been held as having any particular power, it's just a symbol of Judaism as a religion. Whereas the Cross represents Christ's Resurrection, and all demons fear the name of Christ.

That philosophical enough for ya? :P

[identity profile] faeriemaiden.livejournal.com 2008-02-18 05:28 am (UTC)(link)
Of course I believe that, but the writers of the vampires tend not to. In this age of political correctness, I'm sort of surprised I haven't seen a lot more "oh, it's not just Anglo-Christian religious symbols that set vampires to quaking in their boots!" sort of things, and I've read at least one novel in which a character claimed to be atheist, yet still raised no particular questions about why Christian holy signs repelled the vampires. I explain it in my head by saying "well, of course the Cross and churches and holy water are going to be repellent to a demonic force", but it's still strange in this anti-Christian era that the warding power of Christianity is taken for granted.

That philosophical enough for ya? :P

No! I want more Greek! And -- and mysterious signs on a chalkboard!

[identity profile] suangelita.livejournal.com 2008-02-16 03:51 am (UTC)(link)
They didn't literally "change the locks"... that was Buffy's figurative speech. I watched the episode without you, they did this ritual with crosses and holy water and stuff. They did it to Buffy's house, Willow's bedroom and Cordy's car.

[identity profile] faeriemaiden.livejournal.com 2008-02-17 09:03 pm (UTC)(link)
Okay, good, cos that fits much better. (Eh heh heh, Cordy's car. :p)

(Anonymous) 2008-02-18 02:05 am (UTC)(link)
Well, Cordy all panicked and stuff 'cause she gave him a ride... :P

[identity profile] suangelita.livejournal.com 2008-02-18 02:27 am (UTC)(link)
Sorry, that was me. :P

[identity profile] lady-moriel.livejournal.com 2008-02-17 09:02 am (UTC)(link)
And yes! it's Kyra back again with a totally unrelated comment because she has more possible music for the Mariner's Wife mix! You may well have seen this before; I was just looking over what is now [livejournal.com profile] genmix for something else and came across Sea Shanties and Other Songs of the Sea (http://epicblueblanket.livejournal.com/16350.html), tried to add it to my memories, and discovered I'd already done so...months ago when it was actually new. >_< Anyway it has shiny shiny cover art and at least a couple songs that look like they might work, like...um, well, "Land Locked Blues" anyway. I dunno. The files have expired but if you can't get the uploader to reupload them for you, at least you'll have more ideas on what you need to find. *shrug*

[identity profile] tsunamisama.livejournal.com 2008-02-18 02:25 am (UTC)(link)
Vampires across cultures tend to be demonic or supernaturally evil in nature (no duh), and as such tend to be repelled by the stuff within that culture that tends to be proof against such. The reason the Cross repels western/European vampires is that, at the time vampire lore became commonplace in auld Europe, Christianity was the dominant religion; and not the dry, materialistic, empirical Protestantism that tends to dominate the American landscape, but rather the mystical, sacramental, "high-church" Christianity (both West and East) of earlier centuries, where the Cross, holy water, sacred ground, et al., were not symbols, but conduits through which Divine grace flowered to aid the faithful (cf. Acts 19:12, 2 Kings 13:21).

This conception of the "western" vampire is the one that's achieved the greatest popularity and currency in the largely Western-dominated popular media; hence your post.

However, in the legends and lore of cultures across the globe, the vampire appears in one or another form with quite a bit of frequency, from the dreaded Chinese hopping vampire, to the bat-like Baital of India, to various other beasties throughout the world. Each has its own unique characteristics, and each has its own unique weaknesses. Suffice it to say that a hopping vampire probably never even encountered a cross, much less recoiled therefrom.

+++++

As far as the invitation rule goes, basically (as seen in Angel), vampires cannot enter uninvited into the occupied private residence of (a) given individual(s) human(s). The "changing the locks" bit, btw, was a metaphorical reference to some mojo worked. :P